I’m still getting bombarded with comments about the blog on homosexuality. Here is an honest question from a woman wanting to know what to make of Paul’s condemnation of homosexuality in Romans.
Jim,
I appreciate your thoughtful explanation of the cleanliness code, as well as the reminder that Paul called the Old Testament scriptures a shadow of God’s bigger picture. However, I’m wondering how you handle Paul’s other words that specifically pertain to homosexuality within the larger arena of sexual sin? For instance Romans 1:24-28:
“24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.”
I don’t ask this to be antagonistic. I really do want to know how to reconcile this passage with the idea that today’s understanding of homosexuality has nothing to do with what the Bible seems (at least to many Christians) to teach against.
Thank you.
Laurie
Excellent question, Laurie.
You answer that question by reading one more verse. The first chapter lists what various groups in the early church have against one another. He makes a long list of what the traditionalists say about the Greeks and what the Greeks say about the traditionalists. Then Paul makes his point in verse 2:1- “Therefore, you have no excuse whoever you are when you judge another, by your judgment you condemn yourself since you do the same things.”
In other words his whole point is to get the groups to stop judging each other and trust God’s grace. Anti-homosexuality propaganda has to leave that verse off to make it look okay for them to judge.
Romans is a call to move away from an ethics based on the flesh (physical rules or physical pleasure) to one based on the “spirit” (principles of our common life). The whole point of the book of Romans is to move away from legalism without losing our concern for justice. As in all of Paul’s writing the point is to leave the letter of the law and awaken to the fruits of the spirit (of love). As he says of this new freedom in Corinthians, “Everything is permitted but not everything is helpful.”
The new purity is not based on what food we eat or parts of the body we touch, but what our lives mean for others. Love will inevitably lead us to righteousness, but righteousness cannot lead us to love.
Una amable respuesta
1. If Jesus did not mention a subject, it cannot be essential to his teachings.
Jesus vino a redemir a la humanidad
2. You are not being persecuted when prevented from persecuting others.
Se aborrece todo tipo de perscución
3. Truth isn’t like wine that gets better with age. It’s more like manna you must recognize wherever you are and whoever you are with.
Es una idea muy occidental, muy relativista
4. You cannot call it “special rights” when someone asks for the same rights you have.
Los derechos son para todos
5. It is no longer your personal religious view if you’re bothering someone else.
Todas las personas tienen el derecho de hablar sin ofender
6. Marriage is a civil ceremony, which means it’s a civil right.
The civil ceremony
la cermonia civil del matrimonio tiene un origen heterosexual.
7. If how someone stimulates the pubic nerve has become the needle to your moral compass, you are the one who is lost.
Es un punto de vista particular
8. To condemn homosexuality, you must use parts of the Bible you don’t yourself obey. Anyone who obeyed every part of Leviticus would rightly be put in prison.
No se condena a nadie, al parecer tienes tu propia “biblia”
9. If we do not do the right thing in our day, our grandchildren will look at us with same embarrassment we look at racist grandparents.
De acuerdo, velemos por los niños, ¿quién va decidir por ellos?
10. When Jesus forbade judging, that included you.
Jesús viene por segunda vez, lo creemos!!
This is probably the best, most secinct explanation of Romans I have ever read. Just beautiful.
Outstanding, Jim, simply outstanding. As a fellow Christian, I urge you to please continue to speak out so eloquently about this issue. You put into words what’s been in my heart for so long….
Thank you Curtis.
In reference to Mr. Rigby’s response, I would have to disagree. His response is only his opinion and his interpretation of the scripture and does not mean that it is correct. The same goes for my interpretation, but I look at everything as a whole, which includes Old Testament aswell, even Jesus preached and referred to the Old Testament. So, let’s start from the beginning in Genesis 1: 26-27 NCV.
So God created human beings in His image. In the image of God He created them. He created them male and female. God blessed them and said, “Have many children and grow in number.” and the verse goes on.
God creates male and female and commands them to have children. It’s obvious that homosexuality is not what God intended from this very verse alone. This is the natural course of things for male and female and this was God’s plan from the beginning. Now lets go further to Gen 18: 20, God is speaking to Abram,
Then the Lord said, “I have heard many complaints against the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. They are very evil.” NCV.
Then in Gensis 19, two Angels visit lot in the evening and in the story is as follows;
4) Before bedtime, men both young and old and from every part of Sodom and surrounded Lot’s house. 5) They called Lot, “Where are the two men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sexual relations with them.” 6) Lot went outside to them, closing the door behind him. 7) He said, “No, my brothers! DO NOT DO THIS EVIL THING.
So men wanting to have sex with men was a evil thing and as the story goes on, God comes and destroys Sodom and Gomorrah by raining down fire and brimstone. The book of Leviticus gives a list of God’s rules for mankind and in chapter 18 of Leviticus, God gives to Moses a list of things you should not do when dealing with sexual relations, such as having sex with mother, father, sister, brother, in-laws, children, animals, woman during their menstruel period etc. Then in verse 22, God says, ” YOU MUST NOT HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH A MAN AS YOU WOULD A WOMAN. THAT IS A HATEFUL SIN. 23) You must not have sexual relations with an animal and make yourself unclean with it. Also a woman must not have sexual relations with an animal; it is not natural. 24) ” DON’T MAKE YOURSELF UNCLEAN BY ANY OF THESE WRONG THINGS….
Leviticus 20 has the punishment for sexual sins and molestation and adultery were death penalities. But verse 13 says “If a man has sexual relations with another man as a man does with a woman, THESE TWO MEN HAVE DONE A HATEFUL SIN. THEY MUST BE PUT TO DEATH. They have brought it on themselves. Even having a threesome resulted in death by fire in verse 14. One must read the book of Leviticus to see all the laws that God handed down and they were given to us for good reason. Leviticus chapter 5 also speaks about accidental sins and homosexuality isn’t one of them.
Now lets look at Romans chapter 1, I won’t repeat the verses. Paul at the beginning of the chapter is exalting Jesus and then gives a prayer of thanks then talks about how all people have done wrong beginning with verse 18. I agree that no one is perfect, we all have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory. There is no perfect person on this planet. But Paul is being quite obvious here about homosexuality, just look at the verses again, read them for what they are and not worry about other verses which have different interpretations. These words by Paul are straight forward saying, THEY BECAME FULL OF SEXUAL SIN, USING THEIR BODIES WRONGLY WITH EACH OTHER….and then verse 27) MEN STOPPED HAVING NATURAL SEX AND BEGAN WANTING EACH OTHER. MEN DID SHAMEFUL THINGS WITH OTHER MEN, AND IN THEIR BODIES THEY RECEIVED THE PUNISHMENT FOR THOSE WRONGS. NCV.
Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality in the scriptures we have today, but you must keep in mind that His disciples were the ones who continued His teachings and Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ wrote the majority of the New Testament. Therefore, it is safe to assume that he knew what Jesus was for and against. You also must remember that not everything Jesus spoke about was written down. So, homosexuality is what it is…a sin. It is a sexual sin along with others and should not be embraced. I love the homosexual but dispise homosexuality, along with other perverted sexual acts. I’ll end with Revelation 21: 8, BUT COWARDS, THOSE WHO REFUSE TO BELIEVE, WHO DO EVIL THINGS, WHO KILL, WHO SIN SEXUALLY, WHO DO EVIL MAGIC, WHO WORSHIP IDOLS, AND WHO TELL LIES–ALL THESE WILL HAVE A PLACE IN THE LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.” NCV.
NOTE: If God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah back then, and the Bible says that Jesus will return as a roaring lion and not a gentle lamb. When He returns I think He is going to be one pissed off dude with the way we are and there will be war from the heavens. Read it in the Bible for yourselves.
Sheldon, you can use Scripture all you want to try and judge and condemn, but you’re missing the entire point by doing that. You seem to imply that your opinion is somehow more accurate than Jim’s because you look at the Bible “as a whole” (again, implying that Jim does not).
You go back to Leviticus, highlighting passages that are convenient to your cause. Let me ask you this: do you eat bacon? Shellfish? Have you ever tossed a football around? These are considered detestable in Leviticus. Also, if you follow Leviticus “as a whole”, you’ll drag to the city limit and then put to death anyone whom you hear blaspheming. Do you do that? And according to Exodus, you have the right to sell your daughter into slavery. Ever thought about doing that? Not sure how you’d claim that on the tax return, but…
You’re eliminating a crucial factor in how we read Scripture. It is a LIVING document. That means that we must nurture it, take care of it. It has to grow and adapt to a new environment. If we simply take it at face value as it was written thousands of years ago (aka “fundamentalism”), then it is dead. We must take it in historical context, and adapt that to society now. The truth does not change; it’s application does.
Genesis is an allegory that was passed down by oral tradition for thousands of years before it was ever documented on paper (or papyrus). As we know, oral tradition changes and evolves over generations. It tells of their understanding of the origin of life, of the earth. But even at that, the 6 days of creation (yes, 6… the 7th day was a day of rest) do not refer to 24-hour periods. They refer to distinct landmarks along the journey, things that aren’t really refuted by science at all.
Yes, God created male and female… that’s how many species keep going. Yet, homosexuality exists in over 400 species. So it’s unnatural, of course.
Sodom and Gomorrah is not a tale of homosexuality. You can certainly read that into it using an overly-simplified (and not very accurate) translation like New Century (a version that was intended for a 3rd-grade reading level, by the way). Yes, other translations have the men of the towns demanding the visitors be presented “so that we may know them”. And yes, to “know” someone in Old Testament language often implies sexual relations.
However, if you look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah “as a whole”, it becomes clear that it was not an issue with same-sex relations. It was an issue of rape. The men and boys of the village were so arrogant, so inhospitable, so evil, that they saw visitors and wanted to have their ways with them. This was not to be a consensual act. The towns were destroyed because they failed to welcome the traveling strangers and threatened a very violent act against them.
And what Leviticus has to say about homosexuality isn’t at all about homosexuality. You see, at the time, women were property. It was well within acceptable standards of society for a husband to beat his wife… and to rape her. Sex was at the bidding of the man, and it didn’t respect the desires of the woman. Men had social stature, women did not.
Consensual same-sex relationships were, at the time, not a big deal and were often celebrated, but the moment a man forced another man into a sexual relationship – the moment a man raped another man – the offender de-humanized the other man, denying his social status and treating him as property. THAT was the crime for which execution was prescribed.
Likewise, we still find truth in the passages of Leviticus. As I’ve pointed out, one passages says that rape is bad. I think we can agree with that truth. The laws about shellfish and pork? Those are all about food safety. Trichinosis is all but non-existent now, to the point that the FDA has lowered the safe internal cooking temperature for pork. Shellfish are some of the most unstable sea critters around as far as spoilage, and in the arid climate in the time of Moses it was too risky. We have refrigeration today, and can harvest shellfish from safer, colder waters and keep them fresh and safe to eat for quite a while. Oh, and all the laws about slavery were about holding to commitments of debt and paying them off.
Fast-forward to Romans, which I think Jim pretty much hit on the head. “Paul” wrote that letter to a society that was consumed by orgies. This was about rampant promiscuity, not homosexuality. It was written to the “try-sexuals” (who will try anything at least once), those absolutely lost to the flesh and ignorant of the spirit. Again, I think we can agree that a committed, monogamous relationship is much more healthy than sleeping around and participating in orgies, yes?
Another fun fact: the word “homosexual” has no documented appearance prior to 1869. That’s right. 1869… only 143 years ago. There was no concept of “homosexual” 4000 years ago, but they firmly believed at the time that demonic possession caused left-handedness.
By the way, have you ever taken penicillin? It’s a toxic mold, and always has been. That truth has not changed, but its application most certainly has.
We’ve GOT to stop falling back on Scripture as a means of judging, demeaning, and persecuting others. That’s pretty much what Jesus told us not to do, yet it seems to be the face of Christianity today.
Excellent post Alex, well-stated and thoughtful.
Sheldon, you can use Scripture all you want to try and judge and condemn, but you’re missing the entire point by doing that. You seem to imply that your opinion is somehow more accurate than Jim’s because you look at the Bible “as a whole” (again, implying that Jim does not).
You go back to Leviticus, highlighting passages that are convenient to your cause. Let me ask you this: do you eat bacon? Shellfish? Have you ever tossed a football around? These are considered detestable in Leviticus. Also, if you follow Leviticus “as a whole”, you’ll drag to the city limit and then put to death anyone whom you hear blaspheming. Do you do that? And according to Exodus, you have the right to sell your daughter into slavery. Ever thought about doing that? Not sure how you’d claim that on the tax return, but…
You’re eliminating a crucial factor in how we read Scripture. It is a LIVING document. That means that we must nurture it, take care of it. It has to grow and adapt to a new environment. If we simply take it at face value as it was written thousands of years ago (aka “fundamentalism”), then it is dead. We must take it in historical context, and adapt that to society now. The truth does not change; it’s application does.
Genesis is an allegory that was passed down by oral tradition for thousands of years before it was ever documented on paper (or papyrus). As we know, oral tradition changes and evolves over generations. It tells of their understanding of the origin of life, of the earth. But even at that, the 6 days of creation (yes, 6… the 7th day was a day of rest) do not refer to 24-hour periods. They refer to distinct landmarks along the journey, things that aren’t really refuted by science at all.
Yes, God created male and female… that’s how many species keep going. Yet, homosexuality exists in over 400 species. So it’s unnatural, of course.
Sodom and Gomorrah is not a tale of homosexuality. You can certainly read that into it using an overly-simplified (and not very accurate) translation like New Century (a version that was intended for a 3rd-grade reading level, by the way). Yes, other translations have the men of the towns demanding the visitors be presented “so that we may know them”. And yes, to “know” someone in Old Testament language often implies sexual relations.
However, if you look at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah “as a whole”, it becomes clear that it was not an issue with same-sex relations. It was an issue of rape. The men and boys of the village were so arrogant, so inhospitable, so evil, that they saw visitors and wanted to have their ways with them. This was not to be a consensual act. The towns were destroyed because they failed to welcome the traveling strangers and threatened a very violent act against them. Of course, Lot offered his own daughters to be raped by the men of the towns in place of the angels… but there’s nothing wrong with that, right?
And what Leviticus has to say about homosexuality isn’t at all about homosexuality. You see, at the time, women were property. It was well within acceptable standards of society for a husband to beat his wife… and to rape her. Sex was at the bidding of the man, and it didn’t respect the desires of the woman. Men had social stature, women did not.
Consensual same-sex relationships were, at the time, not a big deal and were often celebrated, but the moment a man forced another man into a sexual relationship – the moment a man raped another man – the offender de-humanized the other man, denying his social status and treating him as property. THAT was the crime for which execution was prescribed.
Likewise, we still find truth in the passages of Leviticus. As I’ve pointed out, one passages says that rape is bad. I think we can agree with that truth. The laws about shellfish and pork? Those are all about food safety. Trichinosis is all but non-existent now, to the point that the FDA has lowered the safe internal cooking temperature for pork. Shellfish are some of the most unstable sea critters around as far as spoilage, and in the arid climate in the time of Moses it was too risky. We have refrigeration today, and can harvest shellfish from safer, colder waters and keep them fresh and safe to eat for quite a while. Oh, and all the laws about slavery were about holding to commitments of debt and paying them off.
Fast-forward to Romans, which I think Jim pretty much hit on the head. “Paul” wrote that letter to a society that was consumed by orgies. This was about rampant promiscuity, not homosexuality. It was written to the “try-sexuals” (who will try anything at least once), those absolutely lost to the flesh and ignorant of the spirit. Again, I think we can agree that a committed, monogamous relationship is much more healthy than sleeping around and participating in orgies, yes?
Another fun fact: the word “homosexual” has no documented appearance prior to 1869. That’s right. 1869… only 143 years ago. There was no concept of “homosexual” 4000 years ago, but they firmly believed at the time that demonic possession caused left-handedness.
By the way, have you ever taken penicillin? It’s a toxic mold, and always has been. That truth has not changed, but its application most certainly has.
We’ve GOT to stop falling back on Scripture as a means of judging, demeaning, and persecuting others. That’s pretty much what Jesus told us not to do, yet it seems to be the face of Christianity today.
thank you sheldon, i agree with you. 2 corithians 3:6 says”who hath made us able ministers of the new testament not of the letters,but of the spirit for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life “. the bible is not a theological book it is Gods’ mind or taught in a written and it takes the spirit of God to get the truth from it. the reason why the church of today is not flowing with the power God as in the old with the dicilpes is because the truth has been supressed while evil is being compromised with, and the bible says “JESUS IS THESAME YESTERDAY,TODAY AND FOREVER”[HEBREWS 13:8].the scripture that says”that says all things are lawful but not all things are expedients” tries to explain the fact that man is now loosed ever since Adam was banished out of the garden of eden, which means he is free to do what ever he wants be it good or bad but the word “expedient” emphasises that it is not everything we do is profiting in other words it may lead to death, that why the word came into place to help us make the right choices i life and only those who seek God deligently will be able to understand the truth and be saved.i have just two points to disagree with homosexuality,
1)if God knew it was a good thing for a man to get marry to another man, he woludn’t have created a man and a women with distinct genitals, rather he would have created a man and a man.and the bible says”FOR THIS CAUSE SHALL A MAN LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER ,AND SHALL BE JOINED UNTO HIS WIFE ,AND THEY TWO SHALL BE ONE FLESH”.
2)secondly in the genology of the servants of God in the bible the bible did not mention any being a homosexual while doing the works of God.
now let me ask you this quetion if ur parents wer homosexuals,where would you have been?, i guess ha not even existed. and you mentioned about our children or up coming generation wont be pleased with us,and it is obvious that homosexuals can’t give birth to children, if we all become homosexuals what generation shall we be talking about?.it is time for us open our eyes and start walking in the light truth Christ came to fulfil and put away every form of evil.it is true LOVE leads to righteousness while rightiousness cannot lead to love, but rightiousness is a foudamenter part of Love, u can’t have love without rightiousness because love is God and this was the reason why christ came to convert the unrightious to become rightious.as the bible says every man shall reap what he sows [galatians 6:7]. this is not being judgemental but being realistic.
I’m sorry, perhaps I haven’t been clear. I’m not questioning God, I’m question you. I’m not questioning the Bible, I’m questioning your interpretation of it. As long as you see your mind and God’s as the same thing, we’re going to have trouble communicating.
Joe,
I agree with Alex re: the theological argument. You say “I have just two points to argue with homosexuality,” I’d like to address those:
1- Yeah, and if man were meant to fly, he would’ve been born with wings! Ever taken an airplane?
Homosexuality is not unnatural. Alex states that homosexuality occurs in 400 species of animal — I found a source citing the number as 500 species (well-documented) to 1,500 species.
Popular article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/gay-animals-out-closet/#.T5fojcqfgqg
More detailed article: http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
2- A genealogy is an account of family line — parents and children. So of course couples that don’t have children would not be in a genealogy — you must want a different word.
As for there being no love between people of the same sex in the Bible, how about 1 Samuel 18:1-3?
1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2 And Saul took him that day and would let him go home no more to his father’s house.
3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
Am I saying David was gay? He lusted after Bathsheba so obviously he was attracted to women. But if you are going to quote the verse about a man leaving his father and mother to be joined with a woman in marriage as your #1 proof… David left his father and mother to make a covenant of love with another man, and he was “a man after God’s own heart.”
Finally, did you really just argue that there’s a danger of human extinction because of every person becoming gay? That would include you, you know. The estimated proportion of homosexuals is somewhere around 10%… the human race will survive just fine if only 90% of them are making babies.
By the way, in your comment below you say: “we should stop being so sanctimonial and get radical in the kingdom”
“Sanctimonial” is a variation of “sanctimonious” meaning either “holy” — which would mean you’re saying the exact opposite of what you want to say — or “hypocritically pious or devout” which happens to be what Jim Rigby is arguing AGAINST.
Ok, this is so American, I think we need to leave the history to historians and who gives a peep at what and how long this has been going on. Sexuality is sexuality. Stop boxing people into categories and you are attracted to a person, love a person for who they are to you. I’m so sick of the crap that we are still,,,still going on about gay, straight, bi, kinky. People of America open up and bloody get real. Accept everyone who they are and get one with the real issues in life. Jesus Christ!!!!!!! I’m sure he would have too!
Only making a point.
well jim am not counting myself to be equal with God but i am prevailege to be in his likeness!. the bible says as he is so are we in this world [1john4:17] the biblbe also went further more to say let thesame mind set that is in christ Jesus be in us [philipians2:5] does it actually mean comparing with christ?,this means it is possible for one to have thesame mind set as christ! , the bible further concluded in[ 1corinthians2:16] that as christians, those who seek God in spirit and in truth, do have the mind of christ!. it takes the mind of christ to understand the bible , what am i counting myself to have arrived? no am just trying to let us know that as a true believer you have the mind of christ!.we should stop being so sanctimonial and get radical in the kingdom.i donot want to be left behind rather than sitting down remamining in the diffenssive we should stand up and get to the offenssive.[daniel 12:10]
we are not to debate about this we all do know the truth , if you choose to act on it, then good and fine but if you choose to abstain from it that will be ok!, the bible has already said it all that “ALL THINGS ARE YOURS ……………….”[2corinthians2:22] the choice is yours ! ,but remeber even the good shall go to hell, only the rightious shall inherit the kingdom.so lets work out our salvation with fear and trembling[philipians2:12].
Joe,
Thanks for the concern.but I’m not gay. And hell doesn’t scare me. I could serve God as easily there as anywhere.
Jim
Respectfully, how can Hell not scare you??
Hello James.
I guess I’m not afraid of hell because it wasn’t used to frighten me as a child. My motivation for being good was always to please God and to be more like Jesus. When I became an adult I studied the various images of hell and came to believe that it is more a symbol for what it feels like to be separate from that love than an actual torture chamber built by God to punish people eternally for the mistakes we make in this short and confusing life.
What is your opinion?
Jim
I’d just like to add my 2 cents in – Lot wasn’t condemning MM sex as evil. What he was condemning as evil was RAPE. A lot of people tend to misunderstand the story of S&G as a condemnation of homosexual behavior, when in reality, it was a condemnation of the barbaric lack of hospitality to passers through.
Some folks don’t seem to get the main point of Romans that grace is the power of reconciliation and transformation within and among us people who follow Christ. Paul is trying to get the Roman Christians to get over their differences by understanding that regardless of our differences, we are all in need of Christ and God’s grace. We all have the same weak nature and our failures place us in the same need. His inclusion of exploitive same-sex behaviors popular in the Greek and Roman cultures was just one example given to illustrate his main point. His main point was not to come up with a new Law of Paulicus or something. Same-sex behavior was really only a side issue in Romans because his main worry for them was the falling out between Jewish and Gentile Christians in their community. Seeing Paul’s solution to the main problem of a congregation as the main point of the epistle is getting the wholistic meaning of the scripture. You don’t understand the theme of Romans by picking out everything from Genesis to Revelation that you can interpret to condemn another group of Christians you disagree with. By doing that you pervert the book of Romans by doing the very thing that Paul condemns, and that is being unreconciled without the forgiveness, acceptance, and love of God made available to ALL genders, cultures, and social ranks.
sorry jim if i made you think i was concluding of you being a gay,i was just simply trying to give an expression of the choice we are to make. the “you”refers to us all, i was just trying to make it individualistic.we christianity is not jsut all about dying and going to hell or heaven there are lot more glory we are to enjoy while still on earth, it all depends on the choice we make, if we do take the path of rightiousness then we will receive the glory thereof and vice versa.there are alot of things happening in christianity today giving to many no reason why they should be commited christians. for example you are a christian and i am not but we both do leave in fear[2timothy 1:7], what actually do you think will make me want to serve this God you are serving? ofcause i see no reason why!, there must be something potential to distinct me from you !. this is one of the reson why christianity is considered as one of the religions in the world mean while it is the nature and life style of God .the apostle paul saidin the book of [1corinthians4:20] that the kingdom is not in word,but in power, the question now is were is the power today?the church has bcome a snctimonial ground preparing poeple for the grave.we all need to wake up and stand right.i pray we all grow in understanding[galatians4:1-3].
Alex, you just went against Romans chapter 2: 1, because you yourself just judged me. As I said before, I don’t hate homosexuals, my supervisor is a Lesbian and i would give my life for her. But she knows my take on homosexuality and we don’t debate it. I obviously touched a nerve and you just can’t handle the truth. You even remarked about the NCV, not knowing that I read the bible through 4 to 5 times, including KJV. NKJV, NIV, and NLT. You all talk about Roman’s so much, then look at another book written by Paul, it’s called Galations.
So I tell you: Live by following the Spirit. Then you will not do what your sinful selves want. Our sinful selves want what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is against our sinful selves. The two are against each other, SO YOU CANNOT DO JUST WHAT YOU PLEASE. But if the Spirit is leading you, you are not under the law. THE WRONG THINGS THE SINFFUL SELF DOES ARE CLEAR: BEING SEXUALLY UNFAITHFUL, NOT BEING PURE, TAKING PART IN SEXUAL SINS.
Galatians 5: 16-19. Then the list goes on with other sins and in verse 21 Paul says, “I warn you now as I warned you BEFORE: Those who do these things WILL NOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.
Now that includes everybody, not just the homosexual. None of us are perfect and we all have our sins. The problem I have is people trying to make homosexuality acceptable to society. Agree or disagree, Paul is coming against homosexuality and other sins. I’m just pointing out that God says it is a hateful sin in His eyes. He has it listed with Beastiality for crying out loud. Does this mean then, that if a person is having sexual desires for his dog, that it’s ok if he has sex with it? I mean, if we accept homosexuality, which is not natural, then why not accept beastiality? There is no difference and that’s why God put it in the same category. Laws are needed by the way, because there would turmoil without them. Does this mean then that we are not to obey the Ten Commandments? They are laws given by God. So the next time I come to a red traffic light, I should just blow through it, because even though it is there for my safety and the safety of others, I don’t need to be concerned about it, it’s just the law. If homosexuality is embraced, like how the gay and lesbian propaganda would like, then we won’t have a civilization to worry about. By the way, Homosexual rights should not be considered equal to the persecution of Jews and Blacks. That was hatred towards fellow man because religious background and color of ones skin, which was obsurd. The homosexual lifestyle is a choice, and a sin. The thing is, sexual sins are perversions, that are very addicting to some and these include oral and anal sex between a man and woman as well. The homosexual does not want to leave this lifestyle and so they try to make it ok. Paul said it best, They became lovers of pleasure, more than lovers of God. The way I see it, some people are so far gone that God did give them over to do those things. God can descend from heaven and stand right before them and tell them that Homosexuality is wrong, a sin and to stay away from it. and all they would do is laugh at God and say “Screw you! Your wrong and don’t know what you’re talking about.” As for Jesus, yes He died for all and His grace is greater than all our sins, which means homosexuality is forgiveable, but you must first want forgiveness and repent and turn away from the sin, not accept it. Jesus did say that if a man was to look at a woman to lust after her, in his heart he as already committed adultery with her. So if Jesus spoke against lust and a sin between a man and woman, what makes you think He would be for homosexuality?
Thank you Joe for having a backbone and agreeing with me. The thing is, we can go back and forth arguing over who is right and who is wrong. No one will no the truth until were all dead and gone. Just have to live by faith and follow the scriptures to the best of our ability.
Alex, you don’t know who I am and what kind of experience and education I have, so don’t be so quick to judge me. Just because Mr. Rigby has a web site doesn’t mean he is smarter or right. By the way, you need to read the Bible for yourself, every page and verse. You look at the evidence from the bible as a whole. As in a court of law, you don’t need all the evidence to convict the suspect, just enough to prove that he/she committed the crime. Not all the pieces of the puzzle are needed to know what the finish will look like. I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their sexual sins, I don’t care what version of he bible you read, it’s quite obvious. The fact is, you just don’t want to accept it and so you try to say it’s wrong, because you have no good answer for it. This is why you get upset and angry at posts like this. There are more scriptures written by Paul that will prove my point, so read them. I don’t hate you and I’m not judging you. I don’t know if you’re gay or straight, because many straight people are ok with it. God bless.
Stephaine, How can you say it was rape, you need to read it again. It’s quite obvious the bible makes mention that the men both young and old wanted the two men who were in Lot’s house. Lot tried to offer them his daughters and they refused. So how could rape have been the issue? They would have taken the daughters if that were the case. So yes, it was about homosexuality, and this is why it was destroyed. This is what I mean by people getting upset at the bible because it is so obvious about homosexuality that they just can’t handle it, and so they try to twist and to make it fit as to please themselves and feel better about their sins.
We are not expected to stay silent about these things. We are not to lie down and just let people hear one side of the argument. Society has the right to stand up against that which destroys civilization. It’s is not to be embraced. If one struggles with homosexuality, as with any sin, you repent and do your best to not do it again. This is all God expects, He knows that we are not perfect and this is why Jesus came and did what He did. But it doesn’t me that we continue in sin as Paul said, but if we do, then Jesus is there to forgive the truly repentive heart. This is why we are never to accept the sin as a lifestyle.
I just would like to add one last comment. Alex, I will use scripture all I want and thats exactly what I’m doing. I’m not twisting it at all, you are. It is what it is and it obvious. You mentioned that God didn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their acts of sin and said that He did it because they didn’t accept the two angels. You just proved my point when it comes to people like yourself not reading everything. Rewind a chapter or two in Genesis, God and the two Angels, who the bible refers as men, came to Abram. God came to give Abram the promise of a son to him and Sarah and how the world will be blessed by his seed. But God also came to see Sodom and Gomorrah because He heard of their evil sins. When He was walking with Abram, Abram asked him about His destroying the cities and how if there were fifty, forty, thirty, and so on, God said He won’t destroy it for sake of the righteous that are there. It was a plan set in motion from the beginning, God just wanted to confirm the evil, and in Gen 19: 13 the two angels ask Lot if he has any more relatives there, then verse 13, BECAUSE WE ARE ABOUT TO DESTROY THIS CITY. THE LORD HAS HEARDE OF ALL THE EVIL THAT IS HERE, SO HE HAS SENT US TO DESTROY IT.
This is what I mean by the evidence, there is enough of it there in the bible to know what God’s stance is. I want to point out more from the writings of Paul as well, because you all are taking Romans and making it suit your own beliefs. Look at Ephesians 4: 17-20;
IN THE LORD’S NAME, I TELL YOU THIS. DO NOT CONTINUE LIVING LIKE THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE. THEIR THOUGHTS ARE WORTH NOTHING. THEY DON NOT UNDERSTAND, AND THEY KNOW NOTHING, BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN. SO THEY CANNOT HAVE THE LIFE THAT GOD GIVES. THEY HAVE LOST ALL FEELING OF SHAME, AND THEY USE THEIR LIVES FOR DOING EVIL. BUT WHAT YOU LEARNED IN CHRIST WAS NOT LIKE THIS.
Odds are is, you will probably take this verse and twist it too. So lets read what Paul says the next chapter over in Ephesians 5; 3 and 6, — 3) But there MUST BE NO SEXUAL SIN AMONG YOU, or evil greed. THOSE THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT FOR GODS HOLY PEOPLE. 6) You can be sure of this: NO ONE WILL HAVE A PLACE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD WHO SINS SEXUALLY, or does evil things.
There are alot more scriptures than this that Paul speaks of, and I assure you…God is not silent on the subject.
Sara Alexander,
Reference your comment to Joe, I would have to disagree with you. What kind of comment is, if man was meant to fly, he would have been born with wings. In that case, we should still just be walking around everywhere, I guess we were not suspose to drive around in cars or go sailing in boats either. We are HUMAN BEINGS, we have brains which cause us to think, reason and INVENT things. This is why we were not born with wings. That comment of yours has no place in this debate, it makes no sense. God made us in His image and His likeness, which means we are INTELLIGENT BEINGS. I suppose we are not to have medicines because we would have been born perfect and woul not need them.
Then theres your remark about the 400 species of homosexual animals, will that’s just it…Animals. we are seperate from the animal kingdom, we were created above them, not equal to them, which is why God laid down the laws against the sexual perversions because these things are of the sinful nature. If an animal does these things, then oh well…their animals. Humans shouldn’t, simply because we are of the imaghe and likeness of God. By the way, there is an estimated 8.7 million species of plants and animals on the planet, which means that your 400 gay species is still unnatural, because it is different from the common, natural order of things. For example, the majority of humans are considered to be normal, but those born with major birth defects and deformities are considered unnatural.
Then theres your comment on 1 Samuel 18:1-3, to suggest that this may have been a homosexual relationship is nothing more that perverting the scriptures. The Hebrew word for love in this passage is not of a sexual nature. Read all the scriptures before you start making these remarks, and in verse 4 the very next verse, Jonathan gives David his robe, armor, sword and bow. He did this out of concern for his best friend. Because in verse 5, Saul sends David out to be in charge over the men of war. I love my son, father, and guy friends, doesn’t mean I have sexual desires for them, you can love someone without having sexual feelings for them you kinow. Now look at the next chapter,
Saul also sent messengers to David’s house to watch him and to kill him in the morning. And MICHAL, DAVID’S WIFE, told him…1 Samuel 19:11. David’s wife! What?
The kind of covenant they had was probably like that of best friends doing a blood brother covenant. It was the type of love that Jesus spoke of by saying, “No greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for a friend.” So all this was is a powerful bond between the best of friends. Plus, there was approximately 446 years since the death of Moses and David becoming king. The laws of sexual impurity were given to Moses by God, so I doubt very much that David would have been gay, because the Bible would probably have mentioned it, just as it did his lust and adultery with Bathsheba, which lead to the murder of her husband. So it’s obvious that David did leave his father and mother and cling to a wife, and not another man.